Ryan Anthony Hernandez: One of the reasons why I started this podcast was to expose the cult that I was in. And then it started growing, and then I started exposing other cults, and having guests on this show. And the reason isn’t just to expose all that negativity, all of that bullshit, all of that evil things that happened.

It’s also to spread awareness that healing is possible. In my own journey, in the first few years after I left the cult, I was so depressed. I felt so alone. But now that I’ve started. This journey, and it’s not just called abuse. There’s also religious abuse. There’s domestic abuse, spiritual abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse.

And as I started this journey and I started networking, I guess you can say, or reaching out to other survivors from other different backgrounds. And I saw their resilience. It started to give me hope. That I wasn’t a lost cause. And so that’s the reason for this podcast. One is to expose, uh, the negativity and two is to bring some truth that healing is possible.

That healing doesn’t have to be something that We should be afraid of, because I was afraid of healing. I was afraid of being resilient. And so I’m happy to be on this journey. And for today’s episode, we’re going to be listening to an interview I did with Dr. Tamar MC, and she’ll be sharing with us her journey at the time she was living in the cult, and she will be sharing with us her journey after the cult and for a survivor, for an ex cult member.

For me, it’s very inspiring. It’s super inspiring to see her on this journey, to see her being brave and sharing her experiences because no one has to share their experience. It’s a choice, and she comes on this podcast willingly. and shares her journey, shares her experiences, and also shares that healing is possible, but it’s a journey.

And everyone has their own different journey. But I hope that after listening to this interview, that you’ll learn a few things. As I had learned, so stay tuned and you’ll be listening to that interview very shortly.

Welcome back, everyone. You are listening to the truth that heals podcast. I am your host, Ryan Anthony Hernandez. And today we have a special guest, Dr. Tamara MC. Welcome to the show. Dr. Tamara.

Dr. Tamara MC: Thanks so much for having me.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: I am so happy to have you here. I’ve. a little familiar with your story, not fully in depth, but we’ll, we’ll get to that as we, as we go through this interview.

Uh, but from what I’m aware, Uh, you were at one time in your life involved in a religious cult, not by your choosing, but by the choosing of your father. And from what I understand, and you may correct me if I’m wrong from what, what I understand is that your father joined this religious cult when you were around five years old.

Is that correct?

Dr. Tamara MC: Yes, that’s correct. Yes. Yes, my dad joined this religious community when I was five years old.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay. And was that a domestic in the United States? Was it international community?

Dr. Tamara MC: It was within the United States at the time. Yes.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay. Um, so at the age of five, that’s a very young age for someone to join a religious cult.

Can you share with us, how did life change once you joined? Did you see changes immediately or did the changes kind of, uh, increase, uh, throughout the years?

Dr. Tamara MC: Um, yes, everything changed immediately. My mother and father were together. My mother was traveling the summer that my father joined this community.

She was actually abroad traveling. And so she wasn’t aware of the situation. And when she came home, my father told her that he had converted to a new religion and he was going to be following this new community. So at that point, he asked my mother to also join. And she said, absolutely not. She had no interest in changing her religion or becoming part of any community, much less the community that my father was proposing to her.

And so my life mostly changed at that moment because my mother and father separated over the situation and my father then left, we were living in Arizona at the time and the community ended up leaving Arizona. And he followed them, or he was actually with them. They ended up going to DC and to Atlanta and kind of traveling the East Coast.

And so the biggest change when I was five years old was that I pretty much lost my father.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay. So So immediately when he joined, he just became this totally different person. Did he ever, I mean, I’m not sure for how many years you were there and perhaps we’re skipping through a little bit, but you know, during your time in this community or commune, uh, did he ever express, um, Did he show that he was a father or was that also, did the cult also obstruct his, I guess you can call his, his relationship as a father to you.

Did they destroy that maybe?

Dr. Tamara MC: So, I mean, many things happened when my father first left, I did not join him. Then I began visiting him and I’d stay with him four months of every year. So I’d go between my mother and my father because of their custody agreement, it wasn’t. An official custody agreement, but it was something that they had both decided.

So I was, my father ended up kind of being very nomadic in the beginning, ended up settling in Texas. And once he settled in Texas, I started visiting him in Texas during summers and the winter holidays, which was over four months of the year. And so that was kind of when. I’d see my father and yes, him being a father changed, but it’s really hard to kind of say who he was as a father before, because I was only five years old when, when he did like, kind of take on a whole new way of life, but I do have certain memories.

Before, like before I was five years old and my father did seem much more fatherly. I remember him taking me camping. I remember him putting me on his shoulders and walking around with me. I remembered much more, um, interaction with him after he joined the community. I. Pretty much became a child of the community.

I was watched over and I’m saying watched kind of with air quotes here because I don’t really think the children were watched, but I was, um, I had many mothers and fathers on the community. It was not just my father who was able to tell me what to do and what rules to live by. The community basically parented all of the children.

Again, I’m using that word parented in a very. open way because it’s not parenting in terms of nurturing and nourishing and sustaining, but in terms of control, I would say that is. So yes, my father did change at that point. He was the way I spoke, like I even changed the name. I used to call him Daddy before I joined the community, before he joined the community.

And then The name changed to father and it was actually a translation of the word father. So it was a much more like a much more official way that I spoke with him and his interaction with me was much less.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Well, and as, as you’re sharing your, your, that history, um, you know, my, my mind is thinking about other, other cults or other communities.

And I’ve heard stories where like exactly, exactly what you’re saying, how, uh, the father or mother or both, they are still on the compound or commune, but then the rest of the. Uh, other members, they, they then become parents. Now, uh, did the other members, did they, um, did they replace your father when it came to decisions for, for you?

Like, did they, did they, uh, or did the leadership have any, any say as to what would happen to the children of the members?

Dr. Tamara MC: Yes. The leadership had ultimate control over what happened to the children. They were actually kind of at the highest point of saying how children would be raised and all the decisions regarding them and parents were beneath the leadership and parents listen to leaders.

in terms of how they would like anything that had to do with the children.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay. So right now I’m hearing there’s like, there’s two characters in the story that I’m, that I’m, uh, I’m looking at. One is your father who joined this community, who, you know, changed his religious practices and joined them. And then your story where perhaps you didn’t fully understand what was happening.

Did they, uh, try to teach you at a young age, you know, what was their, uh, reasoning behind their practices, or did you just have to obey without question? Did they at least kind of, uh, give you a teaching as to what they were doing?

Dr. Tamara MC: Um, I, yeah, we, I mean, we were given many teachings. The children were taught how to behave religiously, how to like, yes, we were very much taught how to behave and what to do. We were also given the why to why we were doing it often at the time. The why would make sense because that’s what I was being taught.

And I was a child now when I think about the why’s of why I did what I did. It doesn’t make sense to me, like somebody like, like if, if I was told all of that now with all the knowledge I have, it would make absolutely no sense. If my mother was told that at the time, it would have made no sense to her, but I was just a child and I accepted what I was told.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay. And then for your father, what was it, uh, from your opinion that perhaps attracted him to this community? Was it their rules? Was it their spirituality? Uh, what do you think it was that, you know, that got him to, to join this?

Dr. Tamara MC: My dad would say it was, um, we were a spiritual community. So he would say that it was definitely the spirituality of it.

Uh, he said to me that he had been. He was seeking and searching his whole life. And when he found this way of life, it was like he knew it was right for him. And so within himself, he just knew that this was the path he was supposed to take.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: And then he dragged you, or I don’t want to say drag, but he, he brought you along this path.

Uh, um, did you at any time? Uh, rebel, especially when I say at any time, let me rephrase, uh, in the beginning, did you ever show any rebellion to this, uh, new structure of life or did you just. Uh, fit in,

Dr. Tamara MC: uh, well, going back to what you said about my dad dragging me, I mean, as a child, you have to do what your parents do.

So I did not have a choice. Uh, so I did follow him. He believed he was doing the right thing. He believed by taking me with him that he was bringing me to heaven with him because he was under the belief system that there was only way one way to God and one way to heaven, which was this way of living.

And so him taking me with him was actually. His way of parenting me. It was his way of giving me access. to heaven, unlike other people. So, so in that way, my father really thought he was doing the right thing, which again is like a super complicated thing to say, because, but, but that’s what his belief systems was.

They were so strong and he believed in this so much that he thought he was doing the right thing. Um, In terms of rebelling, I was not a rebellious child. I was the opposite of a rebellious child. I was an obedient child. I was a rule following child. I was I just was absolutely not a rebellious person at all.

It just wasn’t in my nature.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: So you mentioned that he really believed, uh, so he was, he was very genuine from what I’m assuming. Uh, perhaps he was very, uh, believing and he really had good intentions. You know, like you said, he, in his mind, this is the only way to heaven. It’s only this way. The leadership, uh, You know, because in many cults, there is that, you know, brainwashing or there is that manipulation, um, did they, uh, was, was there, did you notice any brainwashing happening at, at the time in the early stages when you were a child, did you ever notice that?

Or maybe later you, you look back and it’s like, Hey, you know, they were, they were perhaps brainwashing us or they were manipulating the truth in some extents.

Dr. Tamara MC: At the time, I wouldn’t have known that. So, no. Um, much later on, I studied, uh, mind control. I’ve studied coercive control. I’ve studied all of that.

So, when I look back, Absolutely, that was happening. Um, so yes, it was happening, but I didn’t have a way to understand it. And it was happening to my father as well, because the way they enticed him into the community, the way he kept him in the community was through all of those tactics. Uh, not to say that he still didn’t have free will because it, I mean, he did, he could have got out at any point if he chose to.

Um, but, but he chose to remain and to kind of live within the community in the way that he was.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: So he, he fell in line, he obeyed whatever it was that they were telling him. Uh, and you, you yourself said that you were obedient. Um, And I, you know, I can’t help, but, you know, because I’m on my own healing journey and I’m trying to, through interviews with other people, kind of understand what it is that I went through and, you know, hopefully through other survivors like you also to grow, uh, in my experience is you said that you were an obedient child, uh, in my case, I was an obedient member.

And the purpose of the obedience is that, you know, In my case, in my situation is that, uh, the leadership and the founder or spiritual leader, uh, that they will. Kind of elevate you or, or, you know, give you, uh, I don’t want to say privileges, but, uh, you know, you’re not going to be hurt, but unfortunately, even though you’re in my case, you know, I might have been the most obedient.

I was still finding myself getting punished. And then they made me think that I was deserving of those punishments. In your situation on, on your compound or commune, did they ever manipulate that where they have you to be obedient and follow all the rules and still they make you feel or think that you weren’t good enough?

So, yeah.

Dr. Tamara MC: So I think that that’s kind of one of the initial phases, which is love bombing. And so I was love bombed and it kind of continued throughout. The time that I was in there, but I was immediately named by the leader. I was named, um, most beloved, which is the translation. And I was told that I was the most special child and like, like I was basically became this chosen child.

And because I was. Somehow chosen to be this special kid in the community. I then took on that responsibility and I lived up to that because that, that’s who I was told I was. And so I took it very literally that that’s who I was. And so I had a lot of responsibility within that. Um,

I didn’t actually get to the punishment part because I was so obedient that I didn’t put myself into situations. where I would be punished. I just like did above and beyond anything that I was told just to avoid any sort of punishment. But there was all sorts of punishment for other children in the community.

So I witnessed them getting punished, but I wasn’t punished in the same way.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay. You just mentioned that you, you avoided putting yourself in situations that would have you to get punished. Uh, what situations did the other children get themselves into that? Uh, ended up in them getting punished. And also to add to that question, what kind of punishments,

Dr. Tamara MC: um, talking back, like being told something and talking back, questioning, um, not doing your prayers, not. Do you like not keeping up with your studies? Like, uh, what we were supposed to be studying of religious texts, um, not dressing appropriately as girls, we had to cover ourselves and so like showing our hair or showing, like wearing pants that were too short would be punishment.

Uh, there was so many ways of punishment, um, not working like we were told to work. We had to work really long and hard hours. So there were just, I mean, there was every possible way to get punished, but I just did not do those things. I knew what the rules were and I just followed them as difficult as it was.

And, um, punishment. Uh, there was corporal punishment. I mean, there was, yeah, I mean, extreme corporal punishment. So I did have like all the emotional stuff, like, like that was baked into the whole situation. Um, but I didn’t have, I did have some corporal punishment, but not to the extent of like all the other children.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: And would the punishment be. be given by your father or their fathers? Or was it, uh, some random member who would be the one to lay it down?

Dr. Tamara MC: So there were all degrees of that. It would be within families. Parents would, would actually, um, would actually use punishment within the family. It would be from the leaders and often it would be from all the community members.

The children would be like every community member had the right to punish a child at any point. That’s terrifying.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: It is terrifying. And was that part of the rules of the, of the, the leadership? Was that part of the, uh, spirituality that, uh, or let me, let me rephrase the question. Let me, let me take in a different, in a different road.

Did you feel that this community was fear based?

Dr. Tamara MC: Absolutely. Everything was about fear.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: So they had corporal punishments. And then earlier you said that they would, I mean, with air quotes, you know, they’d watch the members. Um, was there monitoring, uh, of like who you talk to, of, of everything you do? How, like, how much freedom were you allowed?

Dr. Tamara MC: We weren’t allowed freedom. We were constantly monitored. Uh, there wasn’t a time, I don’t think, where we weren’t monitored. We had to get up before the sun came up. And we went to sleep, much after the sun went down, and during our waking hours all of that was being monitored, we were woken up, often at 4am by screaming that we had to wake up, we were told when to go to sleep, we would often stay awake for all night chanting sessions and we weren’t allowed to sleep.

We’d have to sit in a certain way during those chanting sessions. We couldn’t fall asleep. We couldn’t close our eyes. We couldn’t even like shrug our shoulder. Like we couldn’t even show in any way that we were tired. So our bodies were being monitored at all times.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: So if, let’s say, because it’s, you know, I’m in a, I’m in a totally different community and what you’re saying is kind of like what I lived through and I’m not trying to take away from your story, but it’s just, it’s just so crazy how all these different cults.

They have so many, uh, similarities. So like, let, like, let’s say, you know, your, your body is tired. Uh, would there be a punishment for exhaustion for being tired? Would there be some kind of punishment for that?

Dr. Tamara MC: Yes, you could be beat for being by showing that you were tired, even if it was in the middle of the night and like at two in the morning, even for example, if you showed that you were tired, then there was something wrong with you.

You weren’t strong enough. You weren’t being a good adherent you were being lazy. You weren’t focused like there were so many problems if you couldn’t, if you didn’t show like you couldn’t even not show that you weren’t only not tired but you had to show that you were. interested and actively involved.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: So they put you through sleep deprivation and, you know, obviously the body does need, you know, you know, nature, you need sleep, we need rest. So they put you in a situation where, you know, they, you, they set you up to fail. Um, did you ever, how’d you get around that? I mean, that, that is, that is so hard, uh, for, you know, in, like in my case, we couldn’t sleep and then once I’d be sleepy, you know, there’d be someone, you know, poking me on the back.

Maybe not to the extreme as, as your case. Um, but like, how did you survive? Did you have some kind of, uh, help or would you have coffee or what would you, what would you do, especially at that young age? That’s so difficult.

Dr. Tamara MC: Yeah, I mean, definitely not coffee. We didn’t have caffeine on our community. We weren’t even allowed to have caffeine.

And that would have just been a total like, I don’t know, I never even heard of coffee. It wasn’t even like something. It wasn’t even something I could have imagined. The only thing we were allowed to drink was water out of the tap. So that was about the extent of our drinking habits. Um, sometimes if we had, um, A lemon off of a tree.

We could add some lemon to water, but that’s like really like that was only very, very particular times. Um, so. Also to know like the average adult needing like about eight hours of sleep like children even need more hours of sleep. So to be denied sleep as a child is like, I mean it’s just terrible like no child should be denied sleep and sometimes we’d have.

Two hours of sleep, sometimes four hours, probably at the most six hours. If we were lucky, like it was a really good night. Like we went to sleep at 10 and got up at four, um, which rarely happened. So, so there was no way it was survival. There was no way out. There was no help. There was nothing to do, but just survive.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: And, and you just mentioned that like on lucky days, it’d be like a six hour sleep in, in your situation. Did, did you or the other members ever, ever feel guilty for perhaps sleeping in?

Dr. Tamara MC: Nobody was allowed to sleep in, like there wasn’t even the option. We had to make our prayers by a certain time, which meant that everybody in the community had to wake up.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: And if, if you don’t wake up, then they’ll drag you or. Oh yeah.

Dr. Tamara MC: Yeah, there’s no, there’s no not waking up. I mean, it’s, you will be dragged up, you will, like, be brought to the bathroom, you’ll have water put all over you, like, cold water. I mean, there’s no way not to wake up.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Wow, I wouldn’t be in the mood to pray, you know, with someone throwing water in my face, I mean.

So, uh, let’s kind of, uh, switch gears here because we’re talking about the, uh, punishments and the sleep deprivation. Uh, let’s kind of go back to the monitoring. Uh, and you said there was, you know, very little or no freedom. Uh, did you, like, how were you able to socialize? Uh, like, did you have, were you at least allowed to have friends on the commune?

And if so, how were those friendships?

Dr. Tamara MC: So we were allowed to have friends within the commune. We weren’t allowed to be friends with anyone outside of the commune. Um, it was very insular in that way. And it’s not as if we were told you can have a friend. There were other girls in the commune who were my age at the time. And so I just grew up with them.

And so we became friends and we were also going through the exact same thing together, which made us very bonded. And. In terms of freedom, the only time we had freedom, which really is not freedom, but this is when we felt the most free, uh, the young girls, the tweens and the teens were in charge of cooking and nobody wanted to be in the kitchen.

So everybody would like immediately, like when it was time to start preparing food or cleaning up after food, everybody, all the adults would disperse and leave the kitchen alone to like all the young girls. And so it was at that time that we kind of had our own privacy because nobody wanted to walk. So at that point, that was kind of our freedom.

The kitchen was our freedom where we could kind of talk freely because we weren’t as afraid of people walking in on us. And that was the place that we really bonded because we were working together and we would just have fun in the kitchen as much fun as somebody can have like cooking and cleaning.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: And that can, that can be fun. You know, I mean, at least you have that break. Um, you know, cause like me, I, I love cooking sometimes. I mean, I’ll cook a few things and it gives me a break from, from my day and I’m sure it must’ve been. A breather for, for you all. Uh, but you mentioned that. You were

Dr. Tamara MC: just real quick.

So it was a breather in terms of we could speak, but it wasn’t a breather because we were young girls cooking for over a hundred people and we were only nine years old ourselves and we weren’t only cooking, but we were having to serve everybody and then clean all of the dishes. And we had to do this.

twice a day because we had two meals a day. And so it was incredibly exhausting on top of sleep deprivation. So it was a breather in terms of, we could kind of express ourselves, but it was not a breather in terms of our bodies. And it wasn’t like sitting in. a kitchen like in our own kitchen today and kind of becoming like cooking what we want how we want turning on music or whatever nothing like that

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: okay that’s what i’m thinking like you’re having a good time you’re like giving high fives and oh no okay oh man that i mean that kind of sucks but i mean i mean that doesn’t kind of suck that really sucks because that should that should not be uh someone’s childhood uh but you did You did mention that, you know, you, you, the, the tweens and the teens that you’d go there and you’d have your, your sort of half a breather.

But now I’m kind of curious, were you allowed to speak with members of the opposite sex or was that completely forbidden? Was that monitored? Was that arranged? How did that work?

Dr. Tamara MC: No, we were not allowed to speak to the opposite sex. The girls had their little lives, the boys had their little lives, and I am using gender in a very specific way, binary way, because that’s how it was used in the community.

Um, so we were separated. However, like during kitchen time, the boys wouldn’t cook or anything, but sometimes they would help clean up the dishes at the end and they’d bring them to the kitchen and we would do the dishes. So maybe that would kind of be the interaction as they were running in and out of the kitchen, bringing dishes.

Uh, maybe sometimes passing as when we were walking, but we had to kind of put our heads down as girls, we couldn’t look up. So there was very little interaction between. The two, like between boys and girls.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: So you were forbidden to look eye to eye to, to the boys.

Dr. Tamara MC: Yeah. Or to a man.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Yes. And if you were caught, then that’d be another corporal punishment.

Dr. Tamara MC: Yeah. I mean, it could, I mean, I don’t really recall people. I don’t really recall any of my friends doing that. So I don’t remember that happening. We just knew to keep our eyes down and to walk with our eyes down.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay. So now let me ask, cause I don’t. I don’t know. Uh, how many years were you on the commune?

Were you there, you know, strictly on the commune for like, for years and years? Or were you allowed to leave the commune? Were you allowed to go to school in a public school? Or was everything just, you stay on the commune, you live in the commune, you die in the commune? How was life in that, in that aspect?

Dr. Tamara MC: So I was the only child that went back and forth only because of my mother and father’s divorce. And so I went to public school, so I had both lives. I went to public school with my mother, and then I’d come to my father for the four and a half months of the year. All of my siblings and all of the other children did not leave the commune because both of their parents were part of it.

And they, um, they were schooled on the commune and when I say schooled, that means rarely educated when a woman wanted to actually teach something. And so most of the children didn’t read until they were even nine years old, because there wasn’t proper education in any sort of way. So yes, everything happened within, nobody worked outside.

People weren’t allowed in, we weren’t allowed out. So when I was there, I was there. There wasn’t, there was no leaving or becoming part of like the outside society in any way.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: And if a member wanted to leave, were they allowed to leave or was it like you had to climb the walls and escape kind of thing?

Dr. Tamara MC: Well, it depends on what type of leave, like. There were certain men that were in charge of grocery shopping and so they were able to leave because there was like one car for the whole community. And so you would have to like get permission to use the one car. And then, like, everybody like knew okay this person’s going grocery shopping on Monday at two o’clock so it was like, this is what’s happening.

Could you leave otherwise? No, we were also in the middle of Texas on a 300 acre farm, and there was The closest town was like 20, 30 minutes away. So it’s not like you could even just like walk, like to get to the closest, the closest place was a dairy queen at the time. And it was like 20 to 30 minutes away in a car going like 65, 70 miles an hour.

So that’s not possible.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: And you didn’t have any cell phones?

Dr. Tamara MC: No, there was absolutely no, this was in the seventies, eighties and nineties. Um, yeah, so absolutely no cell phones, no internet. Like we didn’t even have a telephone, like there was one telephone, but it was like in Some in an adult’s room. So it’s not like we could have gone in.

We didn’t have television. We didn’t have radios. We didn’t have newspapers, magazines, books. So there was, yeah.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: So earlier you mentioned, uh, that they, they gave you the name, the most beloved child. Um, and that was like a love bombing, uh, during your years there, did they ever. kind of like punish you from, you know, from, from being the most beloved child.

Did you feel an energy of you weren’t loved in this community or did you really feel beloved?

Dr. Tamara MC: So when I look back, I thought at the time that I really was loved or that I was special. And I was always told what a great worker I was. And I would kind of be whispered to by many of the different adults. Like you’re so much better than all the other children here. And like, I was always told that like, I had this.

This part of me that was different than the other children. When I look back at it, it wasn’t at all that they loved me or I was special in any way other than I followed rules and I didn’t cause problems. So, um, the other children, like I had siblings, my father remarried when I was six years old, a woman who had four children.

So I immediately had four step siblings in the community. And my sister, who was like a year and a half younger than me, she. Just would break every single rule. And she was always in trouble. So I kind of witnessed her and I was like, okay, I don’t want that. Like, no, thank you. So I’m like, what can I, I mean, of course I didn’t think about like, what can I do?

I was just like, I’m just going to keep my mouth shut. When somebody tells me something, I’m just going to do it. I’m going to smile. And that’s how I’m going to get through this.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: And do you feel that you got through it? Or do you feel that you were just surviving at that time? Do you feel like I’m just surviving?

I’m just making it through. I made it through another day. Or did you feel that, uh, did you at any point feel that you needed to get the hell out of there? Yes.

Dr. Tamara MC: Um, it was mixed feelings of needing to get out. But not thinking I could get out because at that point my mind thought that in order to get to heaven and to be close to God that I had to stay in and if I left then I was going to an eternal hell and we were we had so many descriptions of what hell looked like so there was no option to leave because it’s not as if I was like It wasn’t as if I was worried about the leader getting in trouble with him even, or my father or everybody else.

For me, it was like, I’m in trouble with God. And like, I don’t think there’s anything worse than being in trouble with God. It’s like, that’s like the ultimate. So I was like, I didn’t want to break any rules because I didn’t want God mad at me. So that’s kind of where I was coming from is I really had this strong belief where, as I think my siblings are.

Many of the other kids didn’t even believe in any of the God stuff. And it was like, so it’s not like, like they didn’t, they didn’t have that same attachment to the belief system that I did. Well, it’s,

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: it’s, it’s, it’s hard because You know, not, not just in your experience, but in the experience of perhaps many of the listeners, you know, they, they’ve joined this group and not all joined us as children, you know, maybe some of them joined as adults and they joined with good intentions.

And then, but like, like for me, for instance, you know, I joined with a good intentions and then as I got older, I, I wanted to leave. But then there was that, that thought hovering over my head, but if I leave, I’m going to be offending God, and then I’m going to be damned to hell for the rest of my life.

It’s terrifying. And you were how old when you were, when, when you were in this community from five years old up till what age? Up

Dr. Tamara MC: until 20. 20 until I physically left, but I would still say that. I mean, the community doesn’t ever really leave. It’s always within me. I always hear those voices still. And it’s just a matter of managing the voices.

And now at this point in my life, I just turned 50 this year. And so 30 years later, it’s like, I have a lot of control over those voices of going to hell. And if I do this, I’m going to go to hell. And I have to be like, no, that’s not the case. No, I don’t believe that anymore. So I still have to watch, um, my thinking most of the time.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s hard to, uh, rewire, uh, one’s thinking after being, I call it programmed. I mean, for me, I feel I was programmed. I’m not sure if you can relate to this, but I felt programmed to be infantile and to depend on them. So like I couldn’t make any decisions when I left the community, because in my mind, I’m trained to.

to wait for them to tell me to do something. And I’m not sure if, if when you, when you left at the age of 20, did you have those thoughts where, uh, where you feel that you can’t live without

Dr. Tamara MC: them?

So I think the adult experience and the child experience is very different in this way. As a child, I think the Children had to be the opposite of the adults and that they had to be super strong and they had to be independent because we were the workhorses. We did take care of the Children. We basically sustain the community, which is crazy that kids were sustaining a community.

But most of the adults in the community did not work. Um, The women were not working, they would sit around and gossip most of the days with each other as the young girls were working, and the men would kind of be doing their religious teachings and kind of in their own little world. And so I think as a child, we didn’t like We had to be so old, so quick that we weren’t infantile at all.

Like we were children becoming adults and making adult decisions. I mean, within the kitchen with babies, how to raise children, like all of that became the weight on our shoulders. And so when I left, I felt the exact opposite. I was like. Kind of able to conquer the world. It’s like I had kind of been through the worst and I did it on my own and I did it like, like having mental strength, physical strength, all of that, that everything seemed easy in a way after that, in terms of my, my sort of.

Yeah. Just compared to other people, like I just could kind of withstand anything and I’m still like that. I’m like,

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: it’s fascinating. Because when I, when I left, well, there was a period when I did feel, you know, I felt that I was independent, but I mean, I was totally still the, the strings were being pulled and I was just, you know, following orders off all throughout, uh, my turn.

But when I left. There was a sort of independence where I was kind of like I guess, quote unquote, sinning and doing my own things. But for the longest time, each step, each, each decision I made, I felt a guilt, a guilty that I was doing something that was hurting God. And maybe, maybe it was just having a good meal, you know, eating a good meal.

And it’s like, man, I feel guilty if I were, if I were back in the community, you know, I wouldn’t be allowed to be eating today or I’d be, I’d be. You know, doing this or that, uh, did you ever, you know, once you left, was there ever any guilt in, in decision making or like you said, was it all just, you were, when you left, you were ready to conquer the world.

Dr. Tamara MC: Oh, no, it’s, it was continuous guilt. I mean, I had nightmares almost every night. I still have them that I would, for instance, wear shorts out and I’d be caught. Um, yes, I always felt like, like I was sitting, I guess, I can’t stand that word. But yeah, I always felt as if I was going against what I was taught in some ways.

Um, I still, Occasionally get that way like I have to think about like I don’t wear sleeveless shirts, for example, because in the community we weren’t allowed to like I don’t wear a lot of makeup like there’s just all these things that like I still do in my life today. I don’t get dressed up because like we weren’t supposed to show off.

And so like I have a real problem like even looking good or like when I look good I feel like. I’m not supposed to look good. And then I feel so much guilt for looking good as if I’m trying to get attention. If like, I’m trying to be like this sexual object and I’m trying to like attract, you know, the opposite sex.

So I still play with that and I still. It’s really hard for me. I, I like, I’m happiest and like kind of junky clothes, kind of how I grew up. Like, I like wearing clothes with holes in them because I was like, that’s kind of how I grew up. Um, I just don’t like to show off. And that’s where I think a lot of my guilt sometimes comes in is with, is with how my body is in the world.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Yeah, it’s, it’s taken me time and I’m still, I’m still struggling. So, you know, best of luck to the both of us because it’s, and to the listeners, because, you know, sometimes there’s guilt for things that, you know, we shouldn’t, shouldn’t feel guilty for. Um, so I wanted to ask you. Because you didn’t mention that you left around 20 or 21.

Uh, was there, uh, like an aha moment or were there, did you escape? How was it, how was it that you were able to physically, uh, leave the community? Was it a one event thing or was it a chain of events that led to that.

Dr. Tamara MC: That’s a really long story. Um,

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: we can avoid.

Dr. Tamara MC: Yeah, no, it’s a really long story. Of course it didn’t happen overnight.

It happened with time, I was living with the leader, and I was working really hard at that point, and after like working for a couple of years like. Seven days a week not being paid or being not being like just it kind of began to grow and I knew that I had to leave I was living in England at the time our community traveled a lot.

So we began in Texas, but then the community traveled so I was living in England with the leader at the time and my grandfather, he wasn’t my real grandfather, but my grandmother, um, who’s my greatest mentor and kind of, I feel like the reason I did survive and that I am as strong as I am is because of her.

Her husband at the time died, and so I had the excuse that I was coming back to America to be with her, which was my intention. I did think I was going to return after several months or six months or I wasn’t sure how long, but after I came back to America and having time away, I began to see things a little bit more clearly that I never ended up returning.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay. And did the community, did they reach out to you like, Hey, when are you going to come back? Or did you just cut ties completely from there?

Dr. Tamara MC: I didn’t cut ties. I still thought that I may return. I was still in contact with them, not all the time, but I think in their own mind that they knew that I had kind of outgrown working for free.

Like by the time somebody is 21, 22, they’re going to have a little bit, like you can’t boss them around as easily as they, as they did for me for so long that I think at that point they were kind of like, okay, maybe it’s time to let her go. So I don’t think it was really. In their best interest to like reel me back in in that way.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay, so they kind of like discarded you. Yeah Yeah, and you you live there. I mean because you know when you think of family, you know family members They call you they reach out to you. They show that they Love you are concerned. There wasn’t any of that love and reach reaching out They just kind of threw threw you away you felt

Dr. Tamara MC: I mean occasional reaching out in the beginning and then probably Not much after that.

Um, no, because I wasn’t served. I mean, I thought all those years I was loved, but I wasn’t actually loved at all. I was just their free domestic help. That’s all I was. I was, I was, I was there. I was their slave. Essentially. I was a modern day slave. I worked for them for free. And so. Somebody who works for free is replaceable with somebody else that works for free.

So it’s not as if I was, I thought like the leader, he considered himself my adopted father. I considered him myself. I considered him my adopted father, but if that were the case, then he would have, like, like you said, I wouldn’t have been discarded, like parents aren’t supposed to all they’ll they do.

Yeah. I like discard their children in that way. So when I was no longer working, I no longer, they no longer needed me.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: And so when, when you left, you went back to the States, you went to your, uh, Your greatest mentor, your, your grandmother, right? Is that your grandma? Yeah. I mean,

Dr. Tamara MC: I didn’t go to live with her in her house, but she lived in my same city.

And so, yes.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay. So how was life, you know, that’s starting a new chapter going back to United States. Uh, did you go to school again? Did you like, what, what was, what was on your mind? And I’ll give you an example because when I, when I left. All that was on my, all that was on my mind was that I’m good for nothing.

I might as well just uh, party and wait to die because there’s, there’s nothing good that’s gonna happen in my life. That’s not everyone’s story. Uh, what was, what was your story like after leaving the community?

Dr. Tamara MC: Yeah, so I think I was just, I think I was in a lot of pain after I left and I had to work. Um, I had to support myself. So I started waitressing immediately. And so I just became busy with waitressing. And then I ended up learning. I, I graduated high school when I was 16. So I was really young so that I could live with my father full time or, or with the community.

So I lived on the community from the time I was 16 until I was 20 full time. It was no longer going between my mother and my father at that point. And So I just started working and then I found out that, um, that my university actually had a class I was interested in. I don’t even know how I learned about it.

So I enrolled in one class in university and then I only took one class. And then the second semester I took like a couple more classes and then I just fell in love with university. And that was kind of, I didn’t have a plan to go to college. It’s just what happened. And that was kind of what took over in my life.

I never felt like I didn’t have purpose. I always felt like I had so much purpose and that I just, like, I couldn’t wait to like, began. Like I couldn’t wait to kind of dive in and like see what it was that I hadn’t known all those years I was missing or kind of in this hidden community.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay. And, uh, you know, once you started living in this new world, uh, did you ever feel like a tug of war within yourself?

Like, like a, should I do this? Should I do that? Should I go to school? Should I not? Um, like, how was it for you making those decisions?

Dr. Tamara MC: Yes, there was always a tug of war. It was a constant tug of war about this, the decisions I was making, but I did have like Rules within myself because I guess because of my upbringing.

So I just felt that if I like I held myself high and I just like concentrated on my education. I didn’t like go into school and party. I never drink out like we weren’t allowed to drink alcohol in our community. I never I still to this point have never had a drink of alcohol. So it’s not as if I, a lot of the people on the community started drinking and doing drugs and having sex with like, just going wild.

I did not do that. That was like the exact opposite of me. I kind of lived the same way as I did when I was in the community, except for I added education and I just like. I just was working and going to school and just kind of ignoring all of the other stuff. So, and, but I never had the desire to drink or kind of, I’ve never even tried a cigarette in my life.

So I’ve never had that kind of desire. It’s just not who I am. I, I think I don’t like to be out of control. I like to be in full control of my life. So I was always afraid of doing something that would put me out of control. Um, probably the ways that maybe I would feel guilty is like, If I wanted to wear a pretty dress or I wanted to put some makeup on or wear like a bright lipstick in those ways I would feel guilty, but not but not.

But yeah, but I wasn’t torn about like, like, like in terms of like was I behaving correctly I felt like I kept myself like in the way that community members still would have been proud for proud of me, even though I wasn’t in the community.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Okay. Um, there’s something that’s been mentioned a couple of times is, you know, that feeling of guilt, that tug of war, that kind of that battle, uh, for someone, maybe a listener who perhaps is struggling with guilt, uh, from, you know, the.

The cult life to trying to live a normal life. Do you think you could perhaps maybe give a couple of tips or advice to help other survivors kind of, uh, process that they don’t have to be guilty and that they can truly live their life?

Dr. Tamara MC: Sure. Yes. I haven’t really thought of this, but I think like. At the end of the day, what I have found and I’m sure you have also found that all those people that were in my life in the cult that were just part of my every day, they’re no longer in my life, they’re not there. So it’s unlikely that those people whose voices you still hear in your head, that they’re going to actually be there for you when you need them or when you need somebody or when you need help.

And so to actually keep those voices there. Is I mean, like, like, why would anybody even care about what somebody thinks or says who doesn’t really care about us? These people never cared about me. I know in my situation and they often don’t care about their members. It’s a way of controlling their members.

So, I mean, it’s so hard, but I just think it’s an everyday practice. It’s a daily practice that continues for years, but just reminding yourself that. All humans deserve freedom and that we all deserve to live our lives how we choose. There is no one way to live. There is no one pathway that gets us to heaven.

We each have our own path and as many people as there are in the world, that’s as many paths as there are to To wherever and I’m not even saying that like we’re supposed to go to God or anything but there’s, there’s that many paths and that many endings and even if we believe in endings who knows, but, but just to never.

I mean guilt is so it just like destroys us within. And what do we have to be guilty about like, Like we were created, we were meant to be on this earth, here we are, and we’re meant to live our best lives. In our cult, we were chosen, like we were told not to feel joy in all of that, but I believe the exact opposite.

Like we are here to experience joy. We are here to experience happiness. And so, I would often feel guilty for having those feelings. But those are exactly the feelings we should be having, like whenever we feel that we’re not enough or we’re doing something bad, like that is not our truth. It just can’t be.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: And all that you’re sharing is resonating with me, because like, you know. You know, I, I feel guilty, like you said, you know, looking, looking in the mirror, I feel guilty because we wouldn’t have mirrors. There were periods where, uh, if we, if we were in a home, we’d cover the mirror because, uh, the, the threat is if you look at yourself or if you try to look good, it’s because you’re trying to.

Tempt the opposite sex. You’re trying to bring other people to hell, your vein, you’re being, uh, you’re being proud and arrogant. So when I left, it was like every single thing, you know, I felt guilty, but like you’re saying, and I hope it resonates with other survivors or people, they don’t have to be in a call to, to listen to this.

It can be from, you know, domestic abuse or whatever. There’s no need to feel guilty. To be living your life.

Do being happy to being totally genuine. And I think that they’ve stolen so much from us, but like you said, they didn’t even care about us. They, I mean, they can give a rat’s ass if, if I’m there or not. All that they cared was that I stayed in line and I worked. And like you were saying, it became a sort of, uh, slave labor.

So let’s, let’s say someone were to, were to, were to tell you, uh, tomorrow, uh, uh, you were working for God. That’s not slave labor. You, you decided to, to do this because I get that asked a lot. I mean, I get told that a lot that. That what I did was, was good. All the work that I did was good, but here you are bringing, bringing up another concept that it is, uh, slave labor, uh, have you experienced.

Uh, people trying to change your narrative and tell you that what you went through was an abuse or that, uh, or that all, all of that was just for the glory of God. Have you had people trying to, to change your narrative of the story in any way?

Dr. Tamara MC: Well, I don’t have conversations with those people who would try to change that narrative because they won’t ever see.

What I’m saying, because they still believe, and I don’t even know if they believe, because I think people who manipulate and use people to work for free, um, and take vulnerable people such as young girls and have them work for free, they, they absolutely know what they’re doing. So no, they’re not going to say, Oh yeah, sure.

I did that. And. No, so that’s not going to happen. Um, but I was absolutely taught that we had to work because that was our role as young girls. And that was how, like, that’s how we became godly. That’s how we were going to get to heaven. So, I mean, it was all based in that, that working would set us free in a way, like working was like what was going to get us to heaven.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: No, it’s, it’s, it’s It’s interesting because like in our, we have, we had a, we had a saying, it’s, it’s a Latin saying, ora et labora, which means pray and labor, pray and work. And there’s nothing wrong with, you know, doing some chores, doing some gardening, but then they like take it to an extreme where it’s like you’re, you’re extremely exhausted.

And then it’s like, if you’re tired, punishments and you got to work, you got to work. This is for the glory of God. And, you know, Upon leaving, oh man, I felt so lazy because I wasn’t putting myself through sleep deprivation, uh, through all these fast things. When you left, did you feel ever guilty for like, for living a comfortable, did you, I mean, when you left, did you live a comfortable lifestyle right away or did you still kind of follow the rules of your community even when you left?

Dr. Tamara MC: Maybe I’m not a good example. I live a kind of rigid life, like I’m still in the military. I wake up early. I like, I work super hard, but I’m working for myself at this point. Like I’m not working for somebody else. And so I think like I’ve taken kind of the way I was brought up and not, not like consciously, but I’m just like very stringent in what I do and my goals.

I’m incredibly driven. I, yeah. So, yeah. So I don’t know, I guess like I don’t rest. I don’t like I don’t take naps. Like I would probably feel like lazy. Like maybe that still goes through my mind. Like, uh, you know, or even when I hear people and they like are taking naps, I’m like, what, they’re taking a nap.

And I know that that’s like, but like in our community, like taking a nap was like one of the worst things you could do. It just like showed like your weakness, like that you had to actually take a nap. Um. So I don’t do these things like, like consciously, but I think in a way my life somehow still mimics kind of how I was brought up, but in a much different way, because everything I do is for myself.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Well, I’m, I’m very happy for you that you’ve had this freedom and like you said, they don’t care about us and you’re living your life. Uh, may I ask what, what is it now that you’re doing with your life now that you’re no longer on the commune now that you’re no longer attached to this community, what is your life like now?

Dr. Tamara MC: Yeah. So my life has had so many different phases and chapters as all of ours have it, you know, I just turned 50 this year. So I. Since I left, I’ve been married. Um, I was in a long term marriage. I’ve been divorced since then. I have two grown children in their mid twenties. And now I am currently an empty nester and that’s a totally different phase for me.

And I also, my education, like I said, I started, I ended up going to get a PhD. So I have a PhD in linguistics. And my research now really focuses on how language is used to manipulate vulnerable populations. And I am, I just started publicly sharing my research. story in the past couple years about growing up as I did.

And so now that’s really become a part of my activism. And so that’s where I’m at at the moment. I’m a writer. I’ve been writing a memoir for quite a few years that I’m revising now. I write essays about my experience and yes, I mean, my life is very different than it was. When I was a child incredibly different.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: It sounds very busy.

Dr. Tamara MC: It’s very busy.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: But it’s a good busy, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a good busy because you’re being productive for you. You’re not being productive for some loop, some, uh, leader who, who doesn’t care about you. You’re not doing slave slave work. You’re here sharing your, your story by your essays, by your writings.

And then, wow, you’re, you’re doing linguistics. I mean, that is, uh, phenomenal. And, uh, I look forward to one day, hopefully reading your memoir. And once that memoir is out, I look forward to sharing, sharing that with the audience so that they can. Go in and get a few of your a few copies. Um, do you have a date?

Will it be like maybe published within this year or within the next five years? Is there a date set or not yet?

No, I don’t have a date. I’m, I’m very careful about how I’m writing this. So I put a lot of time into the writing of it, learning the craft of writing, but also really having the separation from my story and really having the research behind my story as well.

And that takes years and years. I’m pretty much at the end of revising now. So my next step is looking for an agent and then I’ll be finding a publisher. But even by the time you find an agent, it’s a good two years out. So I’d say probably between two to three years, I don’t, I don’t think it’ll be much sooner, but that’s okay.

I’m not here. Like I’m not in the law. Like I’m not here to do anything quickly. I really want my words to come into the world and, and for them to have the greatest impact and for the writing to really be able to connect with my readers.

And before we start wrapping things up, uh, for the listener, let’s say, let’s say that someone from your, uh, former community from the cult that you were involved in has just recently left and is struggling to survive or for any other cult, uh, what advice can you give them or words of hope, words of healing, uh, to kind of start wrapping up this interview.

Dr. Tamara MC: Sure, um, it’s going to be difficult. It’s going to be a roller coaster. Some days are going to be better than others Um, but you have to trust in yourself like all of us know within ourselves what feels good and what doesn’t feel good And to just trust that and whatever our gut is telling us to do to do that And to never second guess it with all these other words that are coming through our head from the communities where we came from, the leaders that we listen to.

But to really listen to ourselves and To really take just one step and that’s kind of how I’ve worked my whole life. I have this saying that actions answer, which when I feel so overwhelmed like I’m trying to get to a place and I know that I have 20 or 30 things to do. I just make a goal that I have to do one thing and it’s in that action that’s then going to take me to my next action, what am I supposed to do next, because we can’t just stand back and see it all from afar and say okay.

This is where I’m going and this is how I’m going to get there because I can tell you I sure did not know and there’s nothing I could have ever like there’s no way I could have planned. So it’s just like that initial step like when I knew like I heard there was this class in university and I was like, that sounds like something I really want to do and I did it.

So take those little things that make you feel good. And even though they don’t feel like big things, they are big things because those little things will just grow and grow and snowball until before you know it, you’re going to craft the life that you’ve always envisioned for yourself, but it’s going to take time.

It, it doesn’t happen quickly. And all of our processes are different. So what may be easy for one of us may not be easy for somebody else. And we are going to have lows within this. And I didn’t like, for instance, drink alcohol or do that, but that’s not everybody’s journey. And just to be very forgiving with ourselves and kind with ourselves, because there’s nothing wrong.

With kind of these mishaps, or I don’t even like to call them that, or mistakes, because I believe everything, I don’t believe there are mistakes. Our lives, like, each moment is leading us to something else, to like our grander purpose. So, so, so not to be angry or upset with ourselves, and just to really be kind.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Well, thank you so much because that resonates so much with me because I’ve had people ask me, Hey, what are your plans? What are you gonna do with your life? And it’s like, I don’t know. And then it’s like, well, how can you expect to live your life when you don’t know? But what you’re saying, it really makes sense to me.

And I’ve, I’ve, even though I haven’t, you know, thought of it in the way you’re saying. I’ve been trying to live it, you know, just have an action, do it and then allow it to snowball. Like, because for the longest time I had wanted to do the podcast, but even like before starting, before getting involved, people would, and you know, I know that they are trying to be a good friend, but it’s, it’s hurtful when there’s like, Oh, well, what’s your goal?

What’s your plan? Why are you going to do this? How are you going to make money? And it’s like, I don’t know, but I, I want to do it. And so I had a lot of, it, it, it took me a while to chase my dream, but hearing those words of wisdom and I find it to be words of healing. It’s true. Sometimes you just have to follow that gut feeling and, uh, you know, do one action at a time.

And like you said, allow it to snowball, allow it to grow. And that’s what’s happening with me. And it’s scary as it’s super scary. But if I don’t. take that chance on myself. Uh, I feel, you know, now that, you know, I feel that I’m doing therapy, just for just talking to you, but I feel that if I don’t take that chance on myself, I’m never going to truly grow as I’m truly meant to, because I’ve given everything for the cult.

I’ve given all my time, all my effort, labor, blood, and sweat. I give it, I gave it for them, but now it’s time I. do it for myself. And for those who are listening, I hope that you all enjoyed, uh, hearing these words of wisdom from Dr. Tamara MC. And before we, uh, close this, I wanted to ask,

Dr. Tamara MC: Can I respond to you first?

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Yeah, go ahead. Sure. Yeah.

Dr. Tamara MC: I just wanted to say that like all those Voices that are coming in and asking you all those questions of how are you going to make money? How are you going to do this? What’s your goal? Like that’s you don’t know that and that’s totally okay But you knew one thing you wanted to have a podcast That’s all and that’s all you needed to know because you started this podcast And think about all the people you’ve met along the way.

And think of all the new answers that have come. And each step is like getting you closer to maybe, Hmm, do I have a place I’m trying to go? Well, maybe I do, maybe I don’t. But at least you know, like, like, like, now I’m sure you’re much clearer than before you began. And had you not begun, Can you imagine where you would be?

No. You would totally, you would maybe be in somebody, like living somebody else’s life again, like you were in the cult. Like kind of following what is kind of maybe the safe, and I’m not saying the cult is safe, but kind of like following what other people say and assuming that they know more than you.

But they don’t ever know more than you. You had a dream, you knew what you had to do, and you pursued it. And because of that, You’re getting rewarded constantly. And that’s like the beauty of life is just, you have to stick with what you know, is right.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: That’s right. Thank you so much. This is very powerful words that you’ve, you’ve shared throughout this interview.

And if someone wanted to follow maybe your work, uh, do you have any links so that they can perhaps, uh, Find more of your of your stuff.

Dr. Tamara MC: Sure. So yeah, so my name is Tamara and it’s spelled T A M A R A and my last name is just two letters capital M capital C. So Tamara MC. So you can look at my website, which is still under construction.

So hopefully It’ll get you some information, maybe not fully, but Tamara MC. com and all of my social media is under Tamara MC PhD. And the best way you can reach me. If you’re on Twitter, I have my messages open. So feel free to message me there on my website. I do have my email address listed there as well.

I am happy to collaborate in any way to speak. Um. Just really to be part of this community and in any way that I’m able to help out that I have the time and capacity. I’m definitely available. And yeah, so so feel free to find me on Instagram or wherever you’re so wherever you hang out. I’m probably there as well.

So yes.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Cool. I’ll leave it in the show notes. And thank you so much for this interview for sitting down with me. And, you know, And sharing your truth because perhaps your truth can help. a listener or many listeners and that’s the goal of this podcast to bring truth and healing and for the listeners thank you so much for listening you’ve been listening to our special guest dr tamara and c and myself the host of this podcast ryan anthony hernandez have a great day

Dr. Tamara MC: Thank you so much for having me on your podcast.

It’s been so wonderful.

Ryan Anthony Hernandez: Thank you, Tamara. Thank you for listening. You can find me on Twitter and on Instagram at The Truth That Heals Podcast or The Truth That Heals Pod. And you can find me also on YouTube at The Truth That Heals Podcast. Feel free to subscribe, to like, to comment. And if you would like to be a guest on the show, Feel free to reach out preferably on Twitter and I’ll get back to you as soon as possible.

And hopefully we can arrange something and Hey, let’s do a collaboration. Let’s work together and let’s make this world a better place.